Business Partner Partners

Chrissy: 00:04

Welcome back to Business Partner Partners. I am Chrissy. Today, I have a very special guest on the podcast, Rick Bryson. Rick, welcome.

Rick: 00:14

Thanks for having me, Chrissy.

Chrissy: 00:15

Good to

Rick: 00:15

see you today.

Chrissy: 00:15

This is fun. Yeah. So how we know Rick is kind of a long story, I guess. But we got connected through the nonprofit that, Mountain Goat supports. And Rick is currently the creative director of Cargo, which is an advertising, full full Full service agency.

Chrissy: 00:38

Okay. Thank you. Full service advertising agency here in Greenville. And he kinda reached out to us just to talk about what we were doing, and he offered his services to us pro bono. So he did if you come in into Mountain Goat, you will see Rick's work everywhere.

Chrissy: 00:56

So a ton of branding for hats and mugs and bags, and it all is it looks awesome. It is something that everybody compliments us on when they come into here. So we're very thankful for all the time and effort that Rick has given to Mountain Goat. But more importantly, we wanna talk about just branding for small businesses. And for you as listeners to kinda just tune in and be able to hear and maybe learn a little bit about branding and what it is and what you should be doing.

Chrissy: 01:27

So we're hoping that you can find this conversation useful. So, Rick, thank you for being here, and let's get started. Tell us just a tiny bit about your career history and kinda how you got into what you do.

Rick: 01:40

Yeah. Sure. So I've always I've always loved to draw. I've always loved to doodle. I've always loved to make things.

Rick: 01:48

I was kind of that nerdy kid who, he would go to the movies. And then I would come back, and I would try to design my own movie poster to fit that movie. Super nerdy. I know. But but but it got me into learning about composition and typography.

Rick: 02:03

And I was I I think I was very fortunate that going into college, I knew exactly what I wanted to do. So my senior year in high school, Henderson County had an open competition to design the Henderson County Apple Festival, logo. Right? If you've ever been to the Apple Festival up in Hendersonville. Wow.

Rick: 02:24

So they opened it up to all the schools. And so I entered it and I won. And so I got let's see let's see what I I got my picture in the paper. And I think I got a $100. And because of my picture being in the paper, I got a job offer from a local screen printer saying, hey.

Rick: 02:40

I I love your work. I'm printing your shirt design, and I need a screen printer this summer. Do you wanna come work for

Chrissy: 02:47

me?

Rick: 02:47

Wow. So I got I got I got media. You know, I got I got in the media. I got a I got a check, and I got a job. And I'm like, this is what I wanna do for a living.

Rick: 02:55

So, went graduated. I went to I wanted to go to UNC, Chapel Hill because I'm a big Tar Heel guy, but they do not offer my, major there at the time. So I went to Western Carolina, majored in a back got a master's degree in graphic design. And then, after that, got my first job here in Greenville working as a junior art director for an advertising agency.

Chrissy: 03:18

Mhmm.

Rick: 03:18

And I think, you know, I I got out of school with a graphic design degree. I knew how to layout type. I knew layout. I knew, how to craft an an a good logo. I had no idea anything about advertising or marketing.

Rick: 03:32

So I think those first two years, working here in Greenville at Henderson Advertising, really taught me about the business. And then after that, I I went to Atlanta for a few years, and bounced around at several agencies down there. And, came back to Greenville about 10 years ago. So yeah.

Chrissy: 03:50

Do you have, your logo that you designed for the Apple Festival Anywhere?

Rick: 03:56

Yeah. I'm ashamed to say where it's at.

Chrissy: 03:58

I wanna see. I wanna know.

Rick: 03:59

So I don't have the shirts anymore. I think it was on some hats. But they they put they printed them on these little white mugs. Okay. And they they served apple cider in them.

Rick: 04:09

Now I think my mom's probably got 20 of them, like stored away. But the only one I still have is in my garage and we use it to use it to wash the dog. So we've got a little dog and that's the cup we use to, pour over the dog when to rinse it.

Chrissy: 04:23

So that That's great.

Rick: 04:24

There's there's my Apple Festival cup. That's great. But, yeah, you can't I I couldn't, you know, discard my first ever professional design.

Chrissy: 04:33

Of course not. It's classic. It got you it got you where you are today.

Rick: 04:36

That's right.

Chrissy: 04:37

That's pretty cool. So I I do have a question though because I feel like a lot of artists look back at their old work and they're like, oh.

Rick: 04:43

Oh, for sure.

Chrissy: 04:43

When you look at that, you're like

Rick: 04:45

It's awful. It's it's absolutely awful. But that was back but that was back before, you know, I I had Photoshop. That was back before I had I was working on a Mac. Everything was hand done.

Rick: 04:56

And, again, I was looking at bad, eighties era movie posters for inspiration.

Chrissy: 05:03

Do you have the file anywhere that you could share with us of it?

Rick: 05:07

Or you

Chrissy: 05:07

could send me a picture of it.

Rick: 05:08

I'll send you I'll I'll definitely send you a picture of it for sure.

Chrissy: 05:10

Okay. That's great. We can, post it with your Absolutely. With your post on

Rick: 05:14

our

Chrissy: 05:14

our Instagram. Okay. So I I was talking to Rick a little bit before we started recording about how a couple weeks ago, we had Jeremy Elrod on the podcast, and he talked a lot about marketing. And so I was like, let's get someone on to talk about branding. Because I feel like a lot of times these things get mixed together.

Chrissy: 05:31

And I think there is a lot of overlap in 2, potentially. 100%. So, I just kinda wanna hear from you the difference between branding and marketing. And the reason I brought Rick in as an expert in this field is not only has he worked in it for years years, but he's taken our brand to the next level. And so we have become more recognizable because of the work he has done.

Chrissy: 05:56

So I wanted to get kind of his insight into into how his brain works and how he positions these things. So could you talk a little bit about the difference between

Rick: 06:04

branding and marketing? You know, I guess, in a nutshell, to really break it down, you know, branding is really about who you are as a company. Right? It's your it's your core identity. It's, your perception of the company.

Rick: 06:17

It's core values. It's your mission statement. You know, it's you know, someone said, you know, your brand purpose should be how you're gonna go out as a company and sort of change the world. Mhmm. Right?

Rick: 06:29

So that's, to me, that's what branding is. Mhmm. You know, and then marketing is basically how you tell people about your brand. Yeah. Right?

Rick: 06:36

So it's social media and advertisement and billboards and all the stuff that gets your brand out there. So that's how you tell people about your brand and your brand is essentially who you are. Yeah. In a nutshell. If my boss is listening to this, I'm sure he'd be like, no.

Rick: 06:49

No. No. That's that's that's but but it for a graphic designer in a nutshell, I feel like that's that's the simplistic way to

Chrissy: 06:55

So what do you think your boss would say then?

Rick: 06:56

I don't know. He would pull out some textbook and, you know, really get into the minutia. I I feel like I was able to do a lot of the work that I was able to do with you guys as sitting down and, you know, talking with you guys about what you guys are about. Obviously, I had worked with one of your, what would you guys call it? A sister ministry?

Rick: 07:28

Yeah. With Elios who is part of you guys. So I knew a lot about you and what you guys did as, your nonprofit and what how you guys are giving back to the community. So I already knew a lot about that. Yes.

Rick: 07:37

So before I could even jump in and start designing anything, I really felt like I needed to know who you guys were and what you were all about.

Chrissy: 07:44

Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. I think that's an important thing to know is, like and I think we'll get into this later. Like, when you're just hiring someone that unseen on the Internet, potentially, that a lot of that could get lost in translation of, like, okay.

Chrissy: 07:59

Well, you just make me a brand, like, a logo or something.

Rick: 08:02

That's right.

Chrissy: 08:02

Being able to actually get to know your client when you're designing that kind of stuff for them, I feel like is a huge part of

Rick: 08:09

it. 100%. Yeah. You know, I think I think a lot of brands and yeah. I'm just probably gonna speak to probably smaller brands or startups.

Rick: 08:18

They make the mistake of just jumping right in and designing something before they really have put down on paper, you know, who we who are we and what do we stand for and what are what are we going to do with our, you know, moving forward into the world. And they just start out like, oh, it's it's gonna be this and it's gonna look like this. And haven't really given that thought about it.

Chrissy: 08:39

Yeah. That's good. So over the past couple of years, are there any trends that you're seeing emerging with branding? You know, like, well, first of all, I feel like anybody anybody and everybody is, like, starting a business these days. And so we're seeing a lot

Rick: 08:53

Mhmm.

Chrissy: 08:54

Of new brands and things come out. You know, I think the barrier to entry is a lot smaller, because to start a business is not as difficult as it used to be as far as, like, if you're in a sales thing online or whatever. But what are what are some trends that you've seen in the past couple of years?

Rick: 09:10

And just just speaking, I guess, from just from a graphic design standpoint, you know, I think this the retro look and feel is definitely in right now. Everybody wants to recapture the seventies and the eighties and the nineties, which, hey, I'm all for that because I'm a kid of the eighties. Yeah. You know, I don't know. I think it's maybe people are chasing that because it it's, you know, maybe when our parents, they wanted to look back at the forties.

Rick: 09:35

Right? Like that was the more innocent time and things were better and, more simple. Right? And so I feel like people are leaning into that.

Chrissy: 09:42

That's And now we think the seventies, eighties, nineties were more simple.

Rick: 09:45

That's right. That's right. So I think that's that's one trend that I'm seeing. Hand drawn logos. That was I felt like that was a trend, a while back.

Rick: 09:56

It was this sort of this bespoke, everything was hand drawn, had that handcrafted feel. So you saw that. I feel like maybe that trend might be waning a little bit.

Chrissy: 10:06

Okay.

Rick: 10:09

For me, there's this weird thing about going back and forth between minimalism and, I guess, maximalism would be the 2 options to that. So, minimalism, you're seeing a lot of logos really dial back and making things much more simple.

Chrissy: 10:23

Mhmm.

Rick: 10:25

I'm trying to think of an example. Maybe Audi. Right? Audi is one where if you go back and they, you know, they've always had the 4 rings.

Chrissy: 10:32

Yeah.

Rick: 10:33

Right? Before they were silver and metallic and had a 3 d feel to them. I think their new rebrand they did recently, it's just just for circles. Yeah. Right?

Rick: 10:43

So super minimal. And then other brands will go the other route where everything is massive and big and in your face, what we call maximalism. So you're seeing a lot of that kind of stuff. I see a lot of brands having a lot more fun with typography. You know, I felt like, you see a lot of brands who don't take themselves so serious anymore.

Chrissy: 11:03

Yeah.

Rick: 11:05

And so really just having fun with type and letting the fun, type be playful. Everything doesn't have to feel very corporate and and stodgy.

Chrissy: 11:13

Yeah.

Rick: 11:16

I think that I think those, you know, a lot of monochromatic colors are another one that you see a lot of stuff there. So yeah. That's just me speaking from a graphic design standpoint. Some some definite trends that I've been seeing.

Chrissy: 11:27

That's good. What are you most attracted to? Oh. The retro?

Rick: 11:32

Yeah. I love the retro stuff. You know, this is bad because you say because, you know, as a graphic designer you shouldn't be stuck in a certain style. But if you come into the mountain goat and you see a lot of the stuff in here Yeah. You'll say, okay, Rick has a certain style.

Rick: 11:44

Yeah. One of my heroes in this business is a designer named Aaron Draplin. Mhmm. If you guys out there, if you haven't heard him, go look him up. He's awesome.

Rick: 11:53

But he's definitely sways into that kind of seventies, early eighties look and feel. What he's known for is thick lines. Right? All of his logos are just very, very simple. They're chunky, they're blocky, and you can't miss them.

Rick: 12:08

So I feel like the, you know, the mountain goat logo that I created 100% was, you know, inspired by Draplin stuff. So I like the simple. I'm drawn to that. To me, I think a good branded mark should be simple. It doesn't need to have a lot of, bells and whistles.

Rick: 12:24

Yeah. And then honestly, as a designer, I kinda know my limitations. Right? Yeah. I'm I'm not I'm not an illustrator.

Rick: 12:31

Right? Like, I can't go in and and draw an amazing portrait or a caricature or something. So I know what my limitations are, so I kinda live in that world as far as and make that the best that I can make it. Yeah. If that makes sense.

Chrissy: 12:43

That's good. And I think that we can we can kinda talk about that too of like, as small business owners knowing our limitations of like, when we can make things for our business and when we need to, like, farm that out.

Rick: 12:54

Yep.

Chrissy: 12:56

So let's say that someone's listening that's starting a new business, and they're like, okay, I know I need to get a logo. I think and we always joke about this, like, how a lot of businesses spend too much time coming up with their name and logo and not enough time of, like, what are we actually gonna do? Like, once they get the exciting part of, like, the name and logo down, then they're like, oh, I guess we have to, like, actually get to work now. But I think for a lot of businesses, when you're designing that and you're coming up with a name, you're obviously gonna, like, lean towards thing your things you're personally attracted.

Rick: 13:29

That's right.

Chrissy: 13:30

And if we if we don't have the budget to do, like, a market test or get a group study together to talk about, like, what what does this make you feel or what do you think? Is there any way that we can know, okay, this is a brand this is branding that makes I guess, specifically, when I'm talking about logos, like, this is branding that makes this person feel, like they're a part of something different, or they they feel, like, attracted to it. Is there a way to test that kinda stuff?

Rick: 14:02

Well, I to me, again, I think it's yes. And and I tend to do this too. It's like as a as a designer, like if at my job at at Cargo, if a job comes through for a logo, my first instinct is like, oh, I know exactly what I'm gonna do. Right? I want it to look like this.

Rick: 14:17

And without maybe going back and reading the brief brief thoroughly and figuring, you know, and reading through what are what are their their pillars. Right? Their brand purpose and really getting into that. So I think if if you're a small business and you're wanting to create a mark, that's the fun part. Right?

Rick: 14:34

Like that's where, oh, what's my name and and what are our colors and what do we wanna look like? That's the that's the fun part and that's coming. But I do think you need to do the homework on the back end and really establish what do we stand for and what what are we all about. Yeah. And then once you establish that, the rest will the rest will come.

Chrissy: 14:51

Yeah.

Rick: 14:52

So, I Now, if you're asking if you're asking what could a small business do to make a logo, you know, and and and see if it works. Yeah. Right? And if you don't wanna put it into, you know, any kind of marketing or or test marketing or anything like that, if you don't have the budget. I mean, well, first off, don't show it to your mom.

Rick: 15:12

Right? Because your mom That's

Chrissy: 15:13

great advice.

Rick: 15:14

Do not show it to your mom because your mom's gonna love everything.

Chrissy: 15:17

Although my mom listens to every episode of this and she's gonna revolt from that statement.

Rick: 15:20

Oh. Oh. What hey, does your mom like every episode of your well, so there you go. Yeah. Right?

Rick: 15:25

You look, what I'm trying to say is you

Chrissy: 15:27

need hard

Rick: 15:28

you need hard critics. Right? You I I would say show it to to show it to friends and family, but show it to people who are going to be honest with you.

Chrissy: 15:35

Yeah. That's good.

Rick: 15:36

You know, when I make stuff all the time, I will show it, even people who are under me. Right? Like I have, I have graphic designers and art directors that report to me, but they are awesome. And I admire their skills and and I'll show them things like, hey, man, Give it to me. Let you know, is this good?

Rick: 15:54

You know, do you like this typeface? Is this is this looking good? So I would say reach out to people that you trust. A sidebar short story. I had a I had a cousin of mine reach out to me.

Rick: 16:09

So she's married to my cousin. So she's married into the family. About 10 years ago, she was gonna start a little side hustle, photography. Right? So she went and she'd been running photography and she was gonna start a little a little side thing where she was shooting, kids, families Mhmm.

Rick: 16:25

You know, portraits type stuff. And she's like, Rick, I designed a logo. Would you take a look at it and and tell me what you think? Yeah.

Chrissy: 16:32

And I

Rick: 16:33

said, do you want do you want me to give an honest opinion of your logo? I said, yes. So she sent it over to me. And I I feel really bad. I burned it to the ground.

Rick: 16:44

Like it was it was it was terrible. Yeah. And and, you know, here's the thing, she's not a designer. Right? And so that would be another thing.

Rick: 16:50

It's like, find someone who can help you alongside this. You don't have to just hand it off. But if you're not a designer, if you don't understand graphics, find somebody that can that can come alongside you. So, yeah, I I completely burned it down. I was like, okay.

Rick: 17:05

First off, you're you're a photographer for families and you have, this clip art picture of a flower. First off, don't use clip art. That's bad. Don't don't go there. Do something original.

Rick: 17:17

But she had this she had this, picture of a flower. It was black. And I said, first off, that's a bad color for for warm and fuzzy. And then she had a petal that was coming off the flower. One petal falling off the flower and it looked like a teardrop.

Rick: 17:33

And I just said, your logo makes me sad. It's this black flower with a tear coming off of it. And she wrote me back and was like, wow, Rick. Bing on I'm like, that's what you asked for. So you're getting ready to put something out there into the world for thousands of people to see.

Rick: 17:51

And with social media these days, where people can sit behind a monitor and go, holy crap. This looks terrible. I'm gonna make sure that thing is absolutely airtight when when I'm putting it out there in the world. So, yeah. Find critics.

Rick: 18:04

Find people that will, be hard on your work. And, but, yeah. I I think I think that's key. Yeah. That is good.

Rick: 18:13

And if you wanna design it yourself, I I I'll give you a couple little bullets here. If you are gonna design it yourself or if you're working alongside a designer, there's a there's like 4 things that I would say. Make sure your logo is clear to read. Right? Clarity is number 1.

Chrissy: 18:28

Yeah.

Rick: 18:29

Right? Relevance. You know, does it reflect your brand? Right? Does it is it unique?

Rick: 18:34

Does it stand out? Right? You don't want it to be just the same old same old. So, you know, does it stand out in some way? And then versatility, that's a big one.

Rick: 18:41

Right? So when when when I design a logo, I wanna make sure, can I shrink this sucker down and put it on a tiny little business card? And or what's it gonna look like if it's on a billboard? That's good. And what's it gonna look like against this texture?

Rick: 18:52

And what's it gonna look like against this color? So those three things are things that you really need to think through if you're if you're designing your logo, for

Chrissy: 19:00

sure. Like, I'm invested in the story though. What did she end up doing for her brand or for her logo?

Rick: 19:05

I think she changed it up. I don't even think she does it anymore, honestly. I I I feel bad. Maybe I was too hard on her and she gave up she gave up photography. I think she went into real estate or something.

Rick: 19:15

I'm not sure. But, yeah, I Look, I had a real another side story. When I first got into this in school, one of my very first assignments, in graphic design, our professor said, Okay, here's your assignment. We worked for 2 weeks on this assignment. It was like I think it was like a little poster or something.

Rick: 19:33

And when it came time to grade them, he put them up all along the wall Uh-huh. Right, to pin them up. And then he goes into the janitor's closet and he pulls out one of those, giant rubber trash cans on wheels. Right? The janitor's in.

Rick: 19:45

And he starts pulling it and he's going down the going down the line and he would look at each one and he'd go on. And then he would certain ones he would stop. And he would stare at it for a minute and then he would plow out his lighter and he would light it on fire and let it fall into the trash can.

Chrissy: 19:57

That was so dramatic.

Rick: 19:58

It was so dramatic. But I learned very quickly, it's like, you know, you know, everyone's a critic, you know, and so, you know, you can't have your work be precious little babies and so, you know, you gotta you gotta bring your a game. Right?

Chrissy: 20:10

That's so funny. Light it on fire. Light

Rick: 20:14

it on fire. If it stunk, he would light it on fire.

Chrissy: 20:16

Oh, that's so good. Okay. So talking about brand identity, we've talked a little bit all about logos. What are some parts of brand identity that's unseen? So ways that people can think about their brand other than just logo.

Rick: 20:34

So for me, you know, if you're not if you're thinking about the actual logo itself, for me, the things are unseen. I love bringing little personal touches into into your logos. Things that are, that most people don't pick up. Right? The sub subliminal.

Rick: 20:53

Have you ever noticed the Wendy's logo? Have you ever seen have you ever seen the little the little touch in there that most people don't feel? So if you look at the Wendy's logo on her apron, it says mom.

Chrissy: 21:04

Oh. It's

Rick: 21:05

very subtle. And I've never seen that. And I think and the reader the listeners will have check me on this. But I think Dave Thomas Yeah. I think he was adopted.

Rick: 21:16

Okay. Or or he's a big advocate or was a big advocate of adoption. And so and I think I think there was a Wendy's foundation where he they support a lot of adoption. So Oh, that's cool. That was I felt like that was a nice little touch that he brought into into those into his logo.

Rick: 21:30

Yeah. That little personal treatment. I'm a big runner. My wife and I love to run. Saucony.

Rick: 21:35

Right? I think I pronounced that right. I love their their brand logo because, most people look at it, oh, it's just a a cool little swooshy design on the side of the shoe. But it comes from, if you look at it, it looks like a little creek. Yeah.

Rick: 21:50

And there's 3 dots in it. And basically their brand got started on, when they got started they were they were on the Saucony Creek. And the founders, well, what's our logo gonna be? And they they said, well, we're starting right here on this creek. And they looked out and they saw 3 stones in the creek.

Rick: 22:06

And they're like, that's that's gonna be part

Chrissy: 22:07

of the road.

Rick: 22:08

So for me it's like those little Yeah. I just love those little those little bits. Audi, I think I've talked about them. I think their 4 rings mean, originally when they first started it was 4 auto manufacturers kinda coming together and making one big big company. So stuff like that that I really like.

Rick: 22:26

In my own personal logo, here's my own little thing. So if you ever go to my website or whatever, it's just a b. Right? Very simple. I didn't spend a ton of time, but the bee kinda has like a very it looks like a pine tree kind of

Chrissy: 22:40

in it.

Rick: 22:41

And so for me, that goes back to some of my history. So where where I grew up, up in North Carolina, my great great great great great grandfather, and that the Bryson family had a rifle forge where my parents house was. Right? So we they built rifles and sold them to the revolutionary, fighters. Right?

Rick: 23:03

Wow. And they also and they and it was a business that continued all the way through to the civil war. And so they it was called the Gillespie rifle. And so their logo right? They didn't have logos and stuff back then.

Rick: 23:14

But every rifle, they stamped a little pine tree into their into the barrel of their gun. So I thought, okay. When if I'm gonna be a creator, if I'm gonna be a maker, my logo is gonna have that nice little

Chrissy: 23:27

I love that. Yeah. That nod to your family.

Rick: 23:29

I guess where I'm going with that is some of these little hidden things. I think bring bring some personality, you know. When I work with, when I work with clients outside of cargo, a lot of times they'll say, I want a mark and I'm not really sure. But I want it to maybe reflect my school colors or Yeah. Or or something personal to them.

Rick: 23:46

So I think bringing those little touches into the rebranding is also awesome too.

Chrissy: 23:50

That is that's really cool. So talking about businesses that are creating their logos or getting someone to make the logo for them, what's a mistake you've seen businesses make with their branding? And once that you know, once you let out

Rick: 24:06

Yep.

Chrissy: 24:06

What you've done, it's kinda hard to say, oh, never mind. This isn't our logo anymore. But, is there a way to fix the

Rick: 24:14

Yeah. Yeah.

Chrissy: 24:14

Yeah. If you think of any specifics?

Rick: 24:15

Yeah. You redo it. Yeah. I mean You

Chrissy: 24:17

that's the only choice.

Rick: 24:19

I mean okay. I've gotta be careful what I say here because we're kinda going through this with one of our clients. So I'm not gonna I won't tell who it is. But again, it's it goes back to not taking that time to think through

Chrissy: 24:31

Okay.

Rick: 24:31

Right, what you're doing. So we're working with a client right now who came to us and they're they're having a little bit of a branding problem. So not to get into too specifics, they started out one way. Yeah. Right?

Rick: 24:43

Making this making this thing. And it it wasn't doing great. Right? They weren't they weren't selling these things. And so they decided, oh, we'll just reposition it.

Rick: 24:55

We're we're gonna go from an outdoor brand to more of a a golf brand or, you know. And but without changing their logo, without changing really their mission statement. And so now it's kinda like

Chrissy: 25:08

Who are you?

Rick: 25:08

Who are we? Yeah. Exactly. And so you've got a and so it's like you've got a logo that doesn't really match with what you're doing.

Chrissy: 25:15

Yeah.

Rick: 25:15

And so right now, we're working with them to how can we how can we evolve that in a way, that makes more sense. So Yeah. I again, I think it just really comes back to doing that leg work at the upfront. Yeah. To making sure that you are airtight in what what you believe in before you before you go to market with it.

Chrissy: 25:33

And that kinda brings me to a question I had further down on the list. But are there companies that you know of or could give an example of that have rebranded and done it well?

Rick: 25:44

Oh, for sure. Okay. So I have a, I have a 17 year old, who's obsessed with basketball.

Chrissy: 25:54

Okay.

Rick: 25:54

He has been playing basketball since he's 6 years old. And so we do we do it all. Right? We we we've been doing the travel travel ball since.

Chrissy: 26:01

Is he still playing?

Rick: 26:02

He's a senior this year.

Chrissy: 26:03

Okay.

Rick: 26:04

Thanks for bringing that up. I'm gonna be crying at the end of this. I mean, it's senior year. That's crazy. It's rough.

Rick: 26:10

But, I would say, Crocs. So if you if you walk into any any AAU gymnasium where there is basketball players, all those kids, or 90% of these kids are wearing Crocs. Yeah. Right? I think Crocs started out as like a shoe for

Chrissy: 26:31

A lame dad shoe.

Rick: 26:32

Well, it was a lame dad shoe, but I wanna say it started out as like, nursing. Like a lot of nursings remind these things. Right? Yeah. But for whatever reason, they figured it out and started marketing these things to teenage boys, again, who play basketball.

Rick: 26:47

But go to go to any high school, they're walking around them. Now, they don't seem to be as hot. UGGS is another one. Right? UGGS was the, I don't know.

Rick: 26:55

I mean, I'm sure you you were into them in the nineties, like my wife was.

Chrissy: 26:58

Oh, yeah.

Rick: 26:59

You know, that was the big furry boot that And

Chrissy: 27:01

they're back.

Rick: 27:01

And they're back with vintage. Again, with teenagers, my kids, that's all they the the the low cut UGGS.

Chrissy: 27:07

Yeah.

Rick: 27:07

So they've they have figured out the kind of, you know, rebrand themselves in that way.

Chrissy: 27:13

We, so I don't know if you saw on our Christmas tree out there. So GOAT, the non profit we support, works with middle and high school students. And they every trip they go on, whether they're tubing, paddle boarding, biking, they wanna wear Crocs. Yep. And so we have Croc ornaments on the tree.

Chrissy: 27:34

And so we're, getting people to take the ornament and bring back a pair of new Crocs Yeah. To give to goat kids. But those I mean, those middle and high school students, they wanna do all their trips and Crocs.

Rick: 27:45

Well, Elios. Right? The one that so we play open gym with with those same kids Yes. Every Tuesday night. Half of them show up in their Crocs and they're like, I'll just play basketball in my Crocs.

Rick: 27:54

Like they don't even take the time to put on their sneakers.

Chrissy: 27:57

That's hilarious.

Rick: 27:58

So I think those 2 are really good ones. You know, recently, I mean, let's look at the success of bar of Barbie. Right? I think Barbie has done an amazing rebranding job. Yeah.

Rick: 28:10

One that I work on personally, is LG. Right? That's So they're one of our clients. Now, Cargo, unfortunately, we don't do their branding. That's with another agency.

Rick: 28:21

We do a lot of their, you know, advertising and marketing. But they just recently rebranded to where they went from LG, this very kind of stuffy, techy kind of brand, to now they are leaning into kind of their South Korean roots. And so their colors are very bright and colorful. They've redone their logo, moving away again from that techy type of field. Yeah.

Rick: 28:44

Just very simple. And and their their tagline is life's fun. Right? And so all their branding is leaning into that. So they've got fun typography.

Rick: 28:53

They've created all these little fun little, avatars, you know, like the kids use on their phones and stuff. So they've they've created all this. And so we use that a lot in their marketing stuff. That's so fun. So again, leaning into that pillar of life's fun.

Rick: 29:07

Before it was like, yeah. Life's fun, but all your stuff just looks boring and dull and techy. And so now, no, let's lean into that and let's let's go after the younger generation. So, you know, they make stuff like TVs and screens and monitors, all the fun stuff that we like to play with. So let's let's lean into that.

Chrissy: 29:23

Like this one. I think that's my motto too. Okay. So as an artist, I wanna hear your thoughts on Canva. Because a lot of us non graphic design people really rely on it for social media and designing, you know, things to put up in our shop.

Chrissy: 29:43

Like, we have little table toppers for to get people to sign up for our newsletter and to sign up for, or to give us a Google review. What are your thoughts on Canva?

Rick: 29:53

Well, I'm jealous of the girl that created it because great idea.

Chrissy: 29:58

Yeah.

Rick: 29:59

Right? I mean, learning how to basically create templates and type faces and making everything right there for you Yeah. At the touch of a button. I personally have never touched Canva ever. Yeah.

Rick: 30:09

So as a graphic designer, I'm gonna say I I I hate it. Right? Like, I mean I mean but it serve but it serves a purpose Yes. Somewhere. Right?

Rick: 30:18

I mean, here's a good example. On and this is a true story. Right before I came over to do this podcast, I was walking through my office and there was a girl, she's account exec, she's not a creative. But she had this cool little, little oversized postcard sitting on her desk that was pretty well designed. It was it was real, bright colored and eye catching.

Rick: 30:39

And it had a cartoon ice cream cone running and it said Larry's, Larry's Ice Cream Club or something. So I'm a huge lover of ice cream. And so I immediately stopped and said, what is this? Did you design this? And she says, yeah.

Rick: 30:53

I designed this in Canva. So of of course, I'm like, but it looked really good. I'm so Yeah. What is this? And she says, oh, so my stepfather is obsessed with ice cream.

Rick: 31:05

So me and my sister bought him a year's supply, or I guess it's like a ice cream of the month club. And so this is what we're giving him for Christmas. So we we so I designed this card, and we're gonna wrap it and put it under the tree. So I'm like, okay. Perfect.

Rick: 31:18

That's when Canva is great. Right? Like, when you just need to knock out something and you want it to look professional and cool and awesome. But as a designer, if, you know, if again, going back to branding, please please don't use don't use Canva for that. You know, if you're gonna create a logo, if you're gonna create a a print ad that's gonna be you're gonna be putting out there for thousands of people, there is a lot of unemployed, really good graphic designers out there that would Yeah.

Rick: 31:46

Jump at the chance to make something awesome for you. So find one. But, you know, again, Canvas it it serves its purposes Yeah. For what it is. Yeah.

Rick: 31:56

You know, I kind of, you know, I sort of cheat a little bit, not with Canva, but Adobe's got a thing out called, Adobe Express, where you can go in, and it's it's it's kinda like Canva where it's got templates and different fonts, that you can create, social media posts. Right? Yeah. And so, not to toot my own horn, but, I recently, published my first book. And and so I'm having to market my book.

Rick: 32:25

Right? I'm having to go out there and create content for social on a weekly basis to get to get people looking at it. Mhmm. And I don't have I don't have time to sit there for hours and learn how to animate type and and whatnot. So I'm I'm using this tool, right, to go in and, okay, I know what the design is, so I'll throw a background in there.

Rick: 32:44

I'll throw some type in there and make it move for me. Yeah. So it saves time. Right? It saves time and it looks fine.

Rick: 32:49

But but, yeah, I would just say as far as branding goes, please find a designer and do it right. Yeah. Right?

Chrissy: 32:55

That's good. If there's a listener, maybe they're a small business owner, and they created their logo themselves and maybe feel like they're outgrowing or it doesn't reflect what they do anymore. What what would be their first step in figuring out how to rebrand?

Rick: 33:12

Yeah. I think it's just again, I don't want to keep saying, you know, over and over about going back to your core values, but like, you know, is there, you know I don't want to say getting into trends necessarily. Right? You shouldn't chase trends. But I really think is it is it looking at is your logo not working?

Rick: 33:32

Right? I mean, are you getting bad feedback on it? Or is it just is it antiquated? Right? Like do you wanna do you wanna just, rebrand to make it a little more modern, right?

Rick: 33:41

Like you see this with soft drinks a lot. Right? Yeah. One of my favorite rebranding is is Pepsi. Right?

Rick: 33:46

Like I feel like their rebranding is really nice. They've kinda gone back to their roots when they in their heyday of the late eighties nineties. So, I guess it really just depends on what you're what you're chasing. You know? Is what is it about it that's bugging you?

Rick: 34:02

And and then kinda go back to, you know, what again, what your what your roots are and what you're what you're chasing.

Chrissy: 34:08

Yeah. So there's so many different ways you can do this. But anywhere, like, as far as budget goes

Rick: 34:15

Mhmm.

Chrissy: 34:15

Anywhere from hiring someone on Etsy

Rick: 34:17

That's right.

Chrissy: 34:18

To

Rick: 34:19

Fiverr.

Chrissy: 34:19

To yeah. To Fiverr to getting involved with an advertising and marketing agency that could help. What do you think is the best route? Or does it depend on the type of logo? What's your thought

Rick: 34:31

on that? I think it depends on the type. I think it depends on how serious you wanna be with it. Yeah. You know, before I would say before you reach out to anybody, whether that's an agency or a graphic designer, do a little research on your end, you know.

Rick: 34:47

Yeah. I always love to go to when when I have a client, if I'm doing a freelance job or whatever, if I have a client come to me and say, hey, I want a logo or I wanna redo this logo. I'll I'll put homework on them. Like bring me bring me references. What is stuff what are stuff that you like?

Rick: 35:02

What are things that are out there that you feel is close to representing your brand? And so, a lot of times I'll ask them, write something. Give me something. Or, look at other logos or look at inspiration of I mean, it could be artwork, it could be whatever. And and bring that to the table and so you can lay it out and say, this is, these are things that inspire me, these are things that I want, and and how can I encapsulate that into my brand?

Chrissy: 35:25

Yeah. That's good. I, I wanna talk a little bit about branding and maybe a hot take. I'm curious to see hear what you have to say about that.

Rick: 35:36

Mhmm.

Chrissy: 35:36

And the question is, what's more important, your company's brand or your company's product? And I

Rick: 35:42

What yeah. What are you what's your take?

Chrissy: 35:44

So

Rick: 35:45

What are your thoughts?

Chrissy: 35:46

I think it depends on your market. Like, who your target mark or your product in general. I wanna hear your answer first, and then I'm gonna give you an example of one I think the branding matters way more than the product.

Rick: 35:57

Okay. I will use one of my favorite examples, Nike. Right? Like, I I I grew up in the eighties at the rise of Michael Jordan. He's one of my heroes.

Rick: 36:09

So I'm a Nike guy.

Chrissy: 36:10

I know you've seen that movie. Right?

Rick: 36:12

Air. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick: 36:13

Yeah. I've seen it multiple times. Saw it opening weekend with my kids.

Chrissy: 36:16

So good.

Rick: 36:18

I mean, so for me, my answer is it's about the brand. Right? And, you know, Nike doesn't sell shoes. Nike sells a a state of mind. They sell an attitude.

Rick: 36:28

Right? Just do it. You know, get out there. No matter what the obstacles are, you can do it. Right?

Rick: 36:34

That's what they represent and that's what they make. Do they make the best shoes? I don't know. I I maybe. Maybe.

Rick: 36:41

You know?

Chrissy: 36:42

There's only so much shoe tech in the world.

Rick: 36:44

That's right. You know, I you know, so again, going back, you know, I'm a I'm a big runner. Or I should say a big runner. I like to run. Yeah.

Rick: 36:51

But I don't wear Nike shoes because I don't think they fit me great. Right? So even though I live and breathe Nike and and Jordan's my guy, I'm when it comes to shoes, I think probably Brooks might be a better running shoe, or New Balance makes some really great shoes. Mhmm. But I'm not I'm not crazy about their branding.

Chrissy: 37:10

No.

Rick: 37:11

Right? But Nike represents everything to me. And so that so that's that's where I'm at. Right? Like Nike represents a state of mind.

Rick: 37:21

Hey, they also sell shoes. They also sell shorts.

Chrissy: 37:23

They also

Rick: 37:23

sell some other stuff.

Chrissy: 37:24

Yes. I also think I don't know if they've rebranded, but I feel like Reebok is coming back around. Mhmm. Like, it kinda went out for a while, and now it's like

Rick: 37:32

I don't know if they've rebranded into sport high end sports. I think it's they've rebranded into wear the fashion

Chrissy: 37:39

Casual shoes.

Rick: 37:40

Casual fashion, for sure.

Chrissy: 37:41

So interesting. Yeah. I think that

Rick: 37:46

Yeah. I wanna hear your take. What's your what's your thought?

Chrissy: 37:48

There's one in particular that I come in one type of product in particular that I come into contact with a lot, and I think the actual product matters 1%, and the branding matters 99%, and that is candles.

Rick: 38:03

Candles?

Chrissy: 38:04

Yes. Okay.

Rick: 38:06

What sells No. You're right.

Chrissy: 38:07

You're right. That's great. On candles is the packaging

Rick: 38:11

Yep.

Chrissy: 38:12

And the logo Yep. And the words that are on there. Yep. That is why people are buying candles. You most candle companies can make a candle smell good.

Rick: 38:21

Yep.

Chrissy: 38:22

But when you say this is a like a fireplace and you give this description of, like

Rick: 38:27

Mhmm.

Chrissy: 38:28

Sitting by grandma's fire and, you know, you're roasting marshmallows with your family. Like, people are buying candles because of how it looks, not how it smells.

Rick: 38:36

Yep. And I think a lot of that's marketing.

Chrissy: 38:38

Yeah.

Rick: 38:39

Right? Like, I don't really know any I mean, I'm I'm a dude, so I I mean, I'm not I don't buy a lot of candles. Yeah. But, you know, Yankee Candle is really one of the only brands that I kinda know. But, I to that point, to what you just said Yeah.

Rick: 38:55

About what it says on the packaging

Chrissy: 38:57

Yeah.

Rick: 38:58

I think I've bought my wife one my wife isn't a huge candle person, but I 1 1 year I was desperate for one more thing to put in her stocking or something at Christmas. And so I ended up at Yankee Candle. Yeah. I bought the only candle I've ever bought her, and I bought it because the words on the packaging said, November Rain. And I'm like, oh, that's a that's a Gun and Roses song.

Rick: 39:18

I'll buy I'll buy that.

Chrissy: 39:20

Exactly. See? But that's the thing. I was actually thinking the other day. I was like, I wish I was passionate about candles because it started candle businesses.

Chrissy: 39:26

All I would need Yeah. Is a good logo and then good marketing. Candles is one of those things. I do feel like okay. So specifically talking about coffee shops, other small businesses, and we'll talk about the food and bev one in particular, which is what we're in.

Chrissy: 39:44

I think our the our logo stands out because it is so versatile too. Mhmm.

Rick: 39:50

It's

Chrissy: 39:50

kinda like you said, like, the designs that you made, you think you gotta think about what you're putting it on. Like Right. It looks perfect on a t shirt and perfect on a mug.

Rick: 39:58

Well, it's it's funny you say that. I had a creative director one time say, when you're working on it when you're working on a logo, fill it on a t shirt. If it looks good on a t shirt, you got a winner. Right? And so it's I mean, he was he was half joking, but I I always will stand by that.

Rick: 40:13

When I get to when I get to a point where, okay, I think this logo is finished, I will mock it up and put it on a shirt. Yeah. And then like, oh, yeah. I I would wear that. Yeah.

Rick: 40:22

I think that was 100% the thing that I was chasing when I was when I was working on on your artwork for you guys. You know, I was really looking at a lot of retro, 19 seventies, eighties like backpack brands

Chrissy: 40:39

Yeah.

Rick: 40:39

And summer camps and stuff because that's what you guys are all about and that's what you guys embrace here. Yeah. So that really inspired me with a lot of the work that I did for you guys.

Chrissy: 40:49

What are some businesses, in your opinion, that you feel like have done branding really well? I think if we have people listening and they're like, I wanna rebrand or I wanna think about it. Like, Even just go research and see, like, what looks good? What what messaging is good? Who's really figured out their core values and the way they put themselves out there?

Chrissy: 41:04

What are some brands that you feel like have done that well?

Rick: 41:07

I mean, I hate to be the guy who always says this, but, I mean, Apple Apple has done it and they continue to do that. Right? I mean, they they have embraced, creativity. We are we're the computer company that's it's simple. Simple to use, innovative.

Rick: 41:25

Right? Welcoming. And I feel like they over and over again, they have they have figured out their branding. And I don't think they've really ever strayed from that. Yeah.

Rick: 41:35

You know, you know, even even when Steve Jobs passed away, I I feel like they've always kinda stayed the course. I don't think I don't know if they're as as maybe innovative as they used to be, you know, with the actual products. Yeah. But but their branding has always stayed the same. Yeah.

Rick: 41:49

You know? So I think I think that's one for sure that's that's always been there for me.

Chrissy: 41:53

Yeah. That's good. Okay.

Rick: 41:56

Well But how about you? Like, are are there are there companies that you have seen out there that that you have liked Yeah. Not to put you on the spot?

Chrissy: 42:03

No. That's I mean, it's a good question. One company that we're really attracted to, we've thought about curing in here, is Cotopaxi. Have you seen their stuff? So it's like similar to, like, a Patagonia.

Chrissy: 42:13

Like, they make bags and outdoor wear, but it's very bright. A lot of, like, bright colors. The branding like, the logo is just basically the name Cotopaxi, but it's like, I like the font and I like the colors and stuff. I think they've done well. Let's see.

Chrissy: 42:30

I'm I'm also really attracted to Reebok. I feel like I'm I'm more attracted to, like, simple simple and classic kind of designs, like designs that are not super trendy. So I also I mean, I think this goes too more into branding. Like, I it shocks me sometimes, things that are priced certain ways.

Rick: 42:54

Mhmm.

Chrissy: 42:55

And so I think that those people are geniuses when let's talk about Golden Keyes shoes. When

Rick: 43:00

Oh, yeah.

Chrissy: 43:01

They're $600 for tennis shoes, and they're they've done something to make people believe that they're worth that much, and it blows my mind.

Rick: 43:10

It's just like, Supreme. Right? Like, my you know, I have a 15 year old who is he's discovered fashion all of a sudden. And everything wants to be it's gotta be Nike or Supreme or whatever. And I'm like, dude.

Chrissy: 43:24

Yeah.

Rick: 43:24

It's it's a $100 for a white t shirt with a tiny little red logo on it.

Chrissy: 43:29

Well, another one I think of that they've you know, they capture first is Prime Energy Drinks.

Rick: 43:34

Oh, my gosh.

Chrissy: 43:35

And I do not like that branding, but they've figured out who their target market is.

Rick: 43:38

So I read a thing about that. Yes. I've read a thing about that. So they've got one particular I I can't drink them. They're terrible.

Chrissy: 43:44

I've never tried them.

Rick: 43:45

They're not good. But my kids love them. But they've got one that's like red, white, and blue bottle.

Chrissy: 43:49

Yes. I've seen them.

Rick: 43:50

And so that one has become so popular. I saw where they're they're making, metal water bottles

Chrissy: 43:56

Of course.

Rick: 43:56

Of just just the prime minister. Yeah. Totally genius. Again, another one would be, who's the, the who's the water company? Liquid Death.

Chrissy: 44:06

Yes.

Rick: 44:07

Right? Like, brilliant. Right? It's just Genius.

Chrissy: 44:09

And they can charge so much for it.

Rick: 44:11

So much. And it's just water.

Chrissy: 44:13

That's amazing. Yeah. Okay. Well, I think we're running out of time. But would you talk just for, like, a minute about your book?

Chrissy: 44:19

And we might have some overlap of people that are listening that would be interested in it.

Rick: 44:23

Always gotta plug the book.

Chrissy: 44:24

Yeah. Plug that book.

Rick: 44:25

Well, the book is not about branding. But it is graphic design centered. So, I wrote a book called Movies With Balls. It is so I'm a I'm a huge sports fan and I'm a huge movie fan. And so, I kinda brought them all together into what I think is probably the greatest, move sports movie book ever written.

Rick: 44:46

Right? So, I partnered with a writer because I'm not I'm not really a writer. I'm more of an idea guy and a graphic designer. So so basically, we took the 25 greatest sports films ever, in our opinion, and kind of broke them down. And we do in-depth analysis.

Rick: 45:00

We have fictional ticket stubs that I designed in there to like, you know, hey, if you actually went to, the basketball game where Teen Wolf played, what would that ticket stub look like? Right? Yes. So fun. So we like to imagine that, you know, what did the ticket stub, in Moscow look like when Rocky fought Drago.

Rick: 45:17

Right? So we designed that. We've got fictional trading cards in there. And then the another fun one, we we actually have, play map diagrams of the actual games. Right?

Rick: 45:26

So you we kinda break it down with x's and o's. So, so yeah. If you love sports movies and and you love to geek out on them, and yeah, checking out movies with balls everywhere books are sold.

Chrissy: 45:37

That's awesome. Rick, thanks so much for talking to us.

Rick: 45:40

Yeah. It was fun.

Chrissy: 45:41

I mean, we've said this to you before, but we're so thankful for all the branding that you've done here at Mountain Good. It's taken all of our merch to the next level.

Rick: 45:48

Oh, awesome.

Chrissy: 45:48

Everybody wants it.

Rick: 45:49

Well, now that now that I finished with the book, I can jump in and start doing some

Chrissy: 45:53

more projects. Come on. We need we need some fresh new designs.

Rick: 45:56

Yeah. Alright.

Chrissy: 45:57

Thanks, Rick. Alright. See you. Alright. We'll see you

Rick: 46:00

guys next time on Business Partner Partners.